The Future of the Project

[Jonny]

Well, it’s been over four months since the release of 3.0, and not a whole lot has happened around here.  I’ve been working a lot with Java since then, and because of this I don’t believe I can work in VB6 again without gouging my eyes out with golden brooches.    Sure, Java has its faults, but I don’t think I could give up some of what it offers me.  This leaves us at a crossroads.  I want whatever I do from now on to be in Java, but the current DA server and client are in VB6.  There are decisions to be made, and since you guys have been an integral part of this project from the beginning I want to hear your thoughts.  Basically, here are the options:

Option 1 – Direct Port

Basically, I directly translate the VB6 code to Java, either with or without the aid of a converter.  The graphics engine would have to be re-written from scratch, but I think the rest would port over decently.  Unfortunately, porting is EXTREMELY boring.  Plus, in the end we wouldn’t have gained anything except the ability to move forward.  It might also take awhile, as there are many things I would want to do differently since I would be in there anyway (however, I would still have to conform to many of the methods used currently in order for everything to work correctly).  In the end we would basically have DA 3.0, only in Java and possibly with the pop-up engine mentioned below.

Option 2 – Make a new, (mostly) compatible game

Basically, I start from scratch and built the engine the way I would have the first time had I had the knowledge, but I keep it similar enough to be able to use the same graphics and maps (after a bunch of conversion and a little work).  Any engine that uses the RMXP graphics would basically fall under this category, as it would have to implement a similar tile engine to the one currently used.  This option would be much more satisfying than a direct port, and thus would take less time.  In the end we would have a new 2d tile engine in Java, possibly with the pop-up engine mentioned below.

Option 3 – Make a new, completely incompatible 2d game

I really don’t see this happening, unless we were to find a good graphics artist.  I haven’t seen many other premade sets of graphics as complete as the RMXP set.  Basically, we would end up with the same thing as in Option 2, only it would look different and would have some different features allowed by new graphics (paper-dolling, battle animations, etc.).

Option 4 – Make a new 3d game

Now THIS would be fun.  I would absolutely love to do this.  The major problem with this plan is, of course, graphics.  People don’t give away large sets of textures and models for free, and I don’t blame them.  They take work.  We could rip from a commercial game, but that would impose limits based on what graphics they have and could possibly cause some copyright issues.  The best way to do this would be to find a dedicated graphics artist.  However, how many graphics artists are willing to start work without pay on a project that has nothing to show for itself yet?  We could use some crappy or ripped graphics temporarily, but it is very possible that we would never end up with some decent graphics.  It is a gamble and a lot of work.  Without support I don’t believe I could pull this off.



If we were to do something 2d, I’d like to add in the ability to display the map like a pop-up book.  Below are some screenshots from a proof-of-concept pop-up engine I wrote in Java that simply displays a modified form of the DA maps with various map tilts.  I’m not exactly sure how the finished product would look; this is simply to give an idea as to what is possible.

http://i39.tinypic.com/dg2jxy.jpg (This is rendered flat, like in the current GFX engine.)
http://i40.tinypic.com/2m31jx1.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/voa993.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/14uw7d.jpg



The other question is what to do with the current DA code.  The server will be maintained until whatever comes next is released, but what about after then?

Option 1 – Do Nothing

Well, that kind of seems like a waste, but we will have something new to focus our time on, so it is a perfectly valid option.

Option 2 – Tidy up the source code and release it

I have always been very possessive of my code.  This one might be hard for me, but I think I could do it, even though there are several parts of the code from early on that I am ashamed of.    Maybe it could help someone.

Option 3 – Tidy up the source, add scripting back, and release a compiled game engine

I always wanted to do this, but it would obligate me to support and update the engine, which I don’t really want to do.  Besides, does the world REALLY need another 2d game engine written in VB6?  Honestly?

Option 4 – Tidy up the source and give it to someone to make a game or release a complied game engine

If someone was seriously interested I wouldn’t mind this option so much, as long as I am credited and it isn’t made open source without my consent.  I would be willing to provide some code support and/or host a game server for awhile (until it becomes too much of a burden or the project isn’t going anywhere).  Still, there are better candidates out there for someone looking for a new project.



Basically, I want to know who cares, how much, and what you guys think should happen.  Is anyone genuinely interested in any of this at all?

- Jonny

[The Camo]

Ok, for the first four options, I'd go for either 2, for sake of speed, or 4, because it would be epic awesome. Of course, as you said, textures and models don't come free. Depending on the format they needed to be in, and how good they actually need to be, I could create some using the free 3D modeling packages I've got. I would be willing to throw in my support if you decided to go for this, but, I'm heading off to university next year, which may mean my spare time is going to be reduced quite a lot. I'm thinking if we did this, I could possibly turn out low quality models in standardized formats, but until I got a lot better, I'd have issues with making anything too complicated. (people and monsters) I suppose though that one option would be to have characters shown like they are in FPS games, with only the arms or whatever.

As for the pop up things you've got, I like them, except for one thing. I think that one with both sides pushed in the same amount, (straight on view) and with slightly more tilt than the second one you've got would look best. With the fourth one, the trees are ok, but the pillar behind the tree looks weird because of the angle.

As for the code, I don't really have an opinion, but I'd like to have a look through it myself at some point. 

[Jonny]

I'm heading off to university next year, which may mean my spare time is going to be reduced quite a lot.

Same here.  I don't think that should stop us from trying. 

4, because it would be epic awesome.

Yes, yes it would.

As for the pop up things you've got, I like them, except for one thing. I think that one with both sides pushed in the same amount, (straight on view) and with slightly more tilt than the second one you've got would look best. With the fourth one, the trees are ok, but the pillar behind the tree looks weird because of the angle.

The final product would definitely be a straight-on view.  I just took the screenshots from the side to better show that the stuff was popped up.

Depending on the format they needed to be in, and how good they actually need to be, I could create some using the free 3D modeling packages I've got.

I could possibly turn out low quality models in standardized formats, but until I got a lot better, I'd have issues with making anything too complicated. (people and monsters)

That sounds like a decent plan.  If you get some time, throw few quick examples together so I can see how well it would work.

[DELTA]

WAIT, you guys don't know this yet and I never really told you because I figured you didn't care.

For awhile now I've been working on a 2D SideScroller game with other people. We have a good setup, I mean seriously. We have about 5 awesome graphics artists, some awesome ideas that would be a big hit, we have a good hoster for the game. It's all set except the engine and who's going to code it.

I volunteered to learn a language and code it, but seeing as how I am not good at all with creating code from scratch I said we should look for someone to code the base of the engine and I would do the rest.

We have one possible candidate to do this but...he's on an entirely different time zone and very hard to reach.

So...I suggest you do number 3. We could do many things. We could merge Distant Ages and UW (Universal Worlds), you could code the engine let us use the source and then we let you use our graphics, or anything else.

Seriously, I've seen your coding abilities Jonny you would be perfect for this and it would help make an awesome game, and without you we probably will just die because we don't have an engine to use. And I really believe in this game and so does everyone else there...it has amazing ideas...amazing graphics...and amazing potential.

If you don't wish to do it then I completely understand, I mean your coding your engine and you probably would want your own games made from it and other things. I'm just asking you to think about it. If you want to see some of the graphics call me up on MSN or PM me.

[Jonny]

After some talking with Delta about his (very promising and tempting) project, I decided that I wouldn't be satisfied with anything other than a 3d game.    So I guess it is decided.  I will do some brainstorming and then post some ideas for discussion before I start.

[The Camo]

Depending on the format they needed to be in, and how good they actually need to be, I could create some using the free 3D modeling packages I've got.

I could possibly turn out low quality models in standardized formats, but until I got a lot better, I'd have issues with making anything too complicated. (people and monsters)

That sounds like a decent plan.  If you get some time, throw few quick examples together so I can see how well it would work.

Ok, in looking at what I could or could not export from the program I use, it turns out that I can't export anything with primitives in it, which severely limits what I can make. For example, I was going to export this sword but since it's made up entirely of primitives (cubes, spheres, torii, pyramids etc.) I can't export it. What I can export are rocks, terrains, and symmetrical lattices. I could remake the sword with symmetrical lattices, but it would be harder, and wouldn't look quite as good.
EDIT: Nevermind, I can't remake it with symmetrical lattices, I can't export those either 

If I do make things I can export, here are the formats (I think) I can use:

• TrueSpace™ (.cob) Versions up to 4.0 are supported. Material properties are supported.
• VideoScape (.vsa) All versions are fully supported.
• LightWave™ (.lwo or .lws) Both objects and scenes are supported. Versions 6 and up are not supported.
• Heightfield (.hf) Used to import descriptions of heightfields (terrains).
• USGS DEM (.dem) All forms of DEM files are supported.
• USGS SDTS (.ddf) This format is the new USGS format which will replace DEM files.
• Portable Greyscale Map (.pgm) Used to import descriptions of heightfields (terrains).
• 3d Studio® Objects (.3ds)
• 3DMF (.3mf)
• AutoCad® (.dfx)
• Direct 3D (.x)
• Wavefront (.obj)
• WCS Elev (.elev)
• WorldToolKit® (.nff)

I now have three options as I see it
Option 1:
Do things with Bryce, and be limited to rocks and terrains.

Option 2:
Install and learn to use a new 3D modeler, such as Carrara, which I have a free copy of, and might be able to export things I can build easily. This is a gamble though, because it might be subject to the same limitations as my current program or whatever.

Option 3:
I can export primitives from Bryce using the .OBP format, which is really only for use in Bryce. I don't see this happening though.

[The Camo]

I've put up a simple example of a rock here. If you get a lot of text, paste it into a notepad file and save it with a .x extension, as it's a Direct3D file. If you want another format, just ask, as rocks are easy enough to make.

[Jonny]

It is going to be a little bit before I know what formats I can use.  I am trying to decide the best 3d framework to use.

Any ideas for a project name?

[The Camo]

DA3D or Alive? 

[Jonny]

Wow.  Lol.

Anyhow, anything better that DA3D?  I am going to set up the board for it soon, but I suppose we could always change the name later.

[Jonny]

*Checking various mythologies for cool engine names*

[The Camo]

DA3Dalus?

[Jonny]

Ohhhhhhhh nice.  Oh, you are brilliant!  Let me mull that over for awhile. 

EDIT:  It is even better considering that I had considered using Daedalus. 

[DELTA]

Lol, yah pretty cool name Camo. When he came up with that name it instantly made me think of Daedalus.

I should maybe try and think of a name (and fail at it as usual >.>)

Hmmm...
Distant Ages Unlimited? Yah...fail...

[Jonny]

We can use a different name for the actual game later down the road if we want, but for the code/engine/whatever I think we are going with either DA3Dalus Engine or just DA3Dalus.